Beyond ICM (Repost)

[Ares456]

phaedrus, how does your strategy compare to SNGwiz suggestions? Have you had a large enough sample of data from you or someone else doing your strategy in order to have found that it is a good strategy or is this conjecture? Raziel, since you are very good at sngs, I would like to hear your opinion on this.

So the alternative, is to turn to Sklansky's theory of game dynamics where he says at a tight table you should play tight but slightly looser than average and at a loose table you should play loose, but slightly tighter than average.

I've seen this before. I don't understand why playing loose at a loose table is correct, shouldn't you tighten up? At a tight table, shouldn't you play looser? Thats how it is in cash games and MTTs (not turbos).

[Phaedrus75]

Ares, I don't really know what hand size sample this is based on. All I can tell you is that I used this approach to build my roll from $50 to around $3K. I guess you could sharkscope me at the sites I was playing back then if that would help?

Phaedru3 @ Pacific
Phaedrus75 @ Full Tilt.

I started playing higher stakes at all sites including Stars and got pretty much owned at about the $50 buy-in level. That's about the time I realised higher stakes SNGs were probably too mathematical for me and moved to MTTs.

Compared to Wiz its a fair bit tighter shoving range, but if you set all of the player profiles to loose, its actually not that much tighter than wiz suggestions. The shove calling range is pretty close to Wiz though.

As for the Sklanski question, you should play tighter than the average player at a loose table, but still a little bit loose. If you don't loosen up to adjust to a loose table, you get run over, but you still want to have a tighter range than the average player to keep positive expectation from entering the pot. At a tight table, you still play pretty tight, but slightly looser than the average.... the reason being to win more blinds because at a tight table, people fold too much. The same theory holds for SNGs, MTT and cash.

[sanoman]

this strategy is working quite well at the $3 level, ty phaedrus. i had a bit of a rough start but it all works out.
here are results of my first 95 games
itm 45.3 roi 18.0
i should also point out that the reason i started using this strategy was to help improve my mid game so i can get deeper. im also in the top 5 10% more vs the 100 games before so i definitely think its helping here for me. i'm aware it is a pretty small sample, i just thought i would throw in my 2 cents worth.
im curious, once we're itm we switch back to an icm based strategy (3 handed) which would be widening our opening range?

beyond icm graph.jpg (49.97 KiB) Viewed 757 times

[Marty Smith]

If Sock or anyone else could help with this archived issue, be my guest. Archived posts should be searchable and retrievable, so I feel there is a setting or configuration I do not understand here.

[sookmctourie]

I've looked into this, and the best a I can tell is certain archived posts have been deleted. I know that my stt thread "Start of Something Good" is gone as well. It was dated Jan 09. I'll look into this a little further, and update when I know more.

[sookmctourie]

Very impressive work San. Its a great example of what players can do when they patiently learn and apply, which I know you have done. Congrats and much success in your future endeavors.

[sanoman]

im curious why we are open raising 4 handed orange m and and what is are intent, to call or fold to aggression?

[Phaedrus75]

Open raising because we are never open limping and there is a bit too much stack to be open shoving, especially in a SNG.

How we respond to calls or raises will depend on oponent's range, position, board texture if we see a flop etc.

[sanoman]

do we think if our m is closer to 5 shoving could be more optimal than raising vs if our m is say 9 or 10?

[tryin2improve35]

gr8 post chap just found it recentley due to m y own laziness for not looking sooner.. it seems to have improved my middle stage play although it is only a small sample..just wondering though how thid guide should be adjusted once itm.. should it be loosened up a bit more or played the same according to your m zone... thaks in advance tryin2improve35

[tryin2improve35]

Sometime ago Phaedrus posted a thread called Beyond ICM. I cannot for the life of me remember the context of the post but I did make good notes about the strategy he laid out. The intent, IIRC, was to layout a strategy to attack the low-limit regular speed SNGs middle/end game where standard ICM does not always fit. This is a repost of that thread with a few tweaks I have discussed with Phae (feel free to mod as needed man).

Following this strategy has allowed me to attain 22% and 13% ROI at the $1 and $2 since April - not spectacular but for a part-time, long-time losing player, I'll take it. Now if I could ever get traction when I move up - variance has a wicked sense of humor - I might actually eek out a profit.

5 - 6 Handed
------------
Yellow M
Open Raise Group 6+ from any position

Orange M
Open Shove Group 3+ from any position
Open Shove Group 4+ from BTN/SB

Red M
Open Shove Group 6+ from any position


4 handed
------------
Yellow/Orange M
Open Raise Group 6+ from any position - Add Ax from BTN/SB

Red M
Open Shove Group 6+ - Add Ax from BTN/SB

Comments
------------
Open raise amount should be 2.5 to 3 BB.

Be aware of a short stack left to act and adjust your opening range up accordingly.

If you are likely to get called in one or more spots, leaving you OOP, consider tightening your Yellow M opening range.

If you raise 3 consecutive hands and meet no resistance, consider a tighter range on the 4th consecutive hand. Someone is going to look you up and you do not want to give those "hard-earned" chips back.

Facing a 3Bet pre-flop, reshove 88+, AQ+. Fold everything else. You could consider flatting AA or KK. When you are OOP you could also consider flatting with 88, 99 and TT preflop as a stop and go. If you do that from orange M though, you still have to shove any flop, including an AKQ flop. You still want to be shoving JJ+ though, because you lose too much value from smaller PPs when a scary flop comes and they bail.

DO NOT CBet versus more than one opponent OOP. Now if it checks around and the turn comes a blank, consider a delayed CBet. If you are facing opponents that do not know how to hit the FOLD button, check and fold to any action.

Given the right table conditions - a string of tight players to your left - this strategy can be used 7 or 8 handed as well.

GL at the tables, gr8 repost chap and ty phaedrus75 for the original...although i only have a small sample it seems this guide has helped me in mid stages i gotta admit it was alot looser than i usually play but not as loose as i thought it was...anyways can this guide be adapted to a 90 man mtt.. ITM would be 12th place.. so where would i start to apply this guidecloser to the bubble or say from 20th on down depending on mzone ofc thnks again guys trinin3improve35
Chap

[C Brigade]

Hi all! Long time TI user but new to forum. I was just wondering how you guys would apply this strategy to 6-max Super Turbos. Specifically at Carbon. Since it only pays out 2 places and the blinds move so fast, I am having trouble finding balance early in the game. I have been applying the 5-6 handed strategy when it gets down to 4 people and the 4 handed strategy when it gets to 3. The problem is that I don't have time or the stack to just sit early on without being deep red if not grey by the time it reaches 4 handed. I have tried raising only Group 5+ and messed with Group 4+ early on, but some idiot always calls and sucks out. Heeeeeelp!!!