Let's get a bit more into pushing with over 10 BBs

[Coop]

Annette15fan is a way better name than GHSE00011364.
Unfortunately I had never heard of Annette when I signed on to pokerstars and after several name attempts that were all taken my old library card came into my sight.

[Coop]

I just went with hyperspeed through some tourneys of Annette over at PXF. She actually makes overpushs, but only from late position (SB, Bu, CO and rarely MP3) and really not that often. But as an example: she openpushs 16BBs with 55 on the button vs a SB that is shorter than she is and a BB that has twice her chips. 13BBs with A7o from the CO, 13BBs as well with Q8s on the button etc.

One should note that when between 12 to 20BBs she openfolds hands like AJs, KQs and pairs 55 and lower from UTG. When bigger those hands are in her raising range, when smaller she openpushs them.
This very much reduces the risk of being dominated when shortstacked.

[Phaedrus75]

That sort of ties in with something Sheets mentions in his Short Stack Ninja Video at PXF. When you are short stacked (very short stacked) you need no fear domination as much because the range of hands that will be calling you include a pretty wide range. The wider the range that is calling you, the more beneficial Ace Rag becomes.

One other thing to consider is the stack sizes of those behind, and particularly of who is in the BB when you push. I made a mistake of pushing into a micro stack in the BB last night when I was a short stack. I pushed with 6 high and guess what...we swapped stacks! Similarly, there is not a lot to be gained from pushing into the BB when they have 10 times your stack. As evidenced from my "l'il calcs" above, the HUGE majority of the equity derived from pushing comes from fold equity. When you push in a situation where you have little or none, you are left with only the value of your cards.

[Phaedrus75]

further to the above, not even you Coop, will convince me (I don't think) that the need to gamble to gain a stack justifies pushing wide when you KNOW you have no fold equity.

Please tell me if you disagree though...

[Coop]

Nah, I wouldn't disagree with that. Pushing without a hand and without fold equity would be pretty silly except for rebuy periods.

[Phaedrus75]

I am rewatching the Shortstack Ninja video (Sheets in the New subscriber curriculum section.... here is a wonderfully relevant quote..

"what NL tournaments usually come down to is short stacks pushing on big stacks and big stacks calling with hands they would never call with before, or big stacks pushing with hands that they would not have pushed with before and it not bother them if they lose. And they is why, if at all costs, you could build up that big chip stack, the power of that chip stack is even greater than you even imagine.

Seems to me to be another point to Coop's experiment...

[JSquared]

The reason why Pro's don't win big events, is because they are BIG events!

How many name pros entered the wsop ME last year? Lets make up a number of 100?

100 out of ~5000 players.
Even if the likelihood that a pro is twice as likely to cash than anyone else, it still leaves that 1 in 25 WSOP ME will have a Pro winner.

[Coop]

I wish Cunningham would have beaten the Gold. That would have been great for the pros.

[trapsetter]

One should note that when between 12 to 20BBs she openfolds hands like AJs, KQs and pairs 55 and lower from UTG. When bigger those hands are in her raising range, when smaller she openpushs them.
This very much reduces the risk of being dominated when shortstacked.

Are you saying then coop that between 12-20BBs Annette wont open with a raise or push with AJs, HQs and pps 55/- from UTG?????? sorry if it looks blatantly obvious but im having a blonde moment here
Which position would she play these hands from between the BB range already mentioned and how???
i mean would she raise in LP with these or just shove??

[Phaedrus75]

I suspect we are getting into nuances here which is what separates the Moneymakers from the Money Makers.... (i'm going to coin that one too )

From what I have read of Coop's posts, she is pushing those hands from LP with around 10 to 13BBs, but folding them from EP. From a bigger stack she would be raising them (rather than shoving) from LP - this is given her excellence in post flop play. I do not know what she would do with them from EP from a bigger stack, but I strongly suspect that the answer would be to fold.

[sun137]

Only catching up from the weekend, great thread guys, need to read it again! A lot of good things tying into the push/fold ranges analysis by M Zone (which I have nearly finished - will send to you tomorrow Phaedrus before posting in the forum).

[Phaedrus75]

If I said I was itching with anticipation, it would sound a little contrived...but I am

One for the data base...

www.pokerhand.org/?3962590

[Coop]

Sometimes she raises them from early position. When bigstacked she certainly raises any pocket pair. Sometimes she even opens from early position with those hands from the mentioned BBs of 12-20 but I have seen her do that only on passive tables.

[turn and fall]

Nah i loved gold.

He knew he was not a good player. but he had a massive advantage over Cunningham and all the other players.

He had huge heart, he just played the moment

Also i find cunningham realllllllllyyyyyyyyyyy boring.

His call down with A high was great though.


Anyway i love how the pros never win the ME. Shows people how anything can be achieved, it is very inspiring. also it encourages people to play poker more, which is good for us.

[Coop]

Okay, i agree with almost everything you said, turnandfall. I do like Gold as a player on TV, though I don't consider Cunningham boring, I just wanted the best player to win it. But admitted, it's very good for good online players that a lot of amateurs win the ME.