An Effective Stop Loss System for FL and NL Cash Games

[sun137]

When we are playing well, and/or the cards are 'hot' and falling our way, we are masters of the universe, an unbeatable colossus destroying all before us with subtle plays, outrageous bluffs and deep cover trapping of our poor opponents.

When we are playing badly, and/or the cards are 'cold' and NOT falling our way, we are scared rabbits, afraid of our own shadow, seeing traps and ambushes with every turn of the card, running away with strong cards from the weakest of boards and opponents, folding TPTK to no hope bluffs and falling for the most obvious of traps.

Poker can be an emotional roller coaster - for as long as you allow it to be.

The BR series provides a simple 50% stop loss rule for all cash games to cut out the emotional turmoil. If you hit the stop loss, leave the table and do not play until the next day (or at least after a solid break). You need a clear positive mind before playing again.

For example:

The standard Table Roll (TR) in FL is 30BB. If you are playing FL5/10, the TR is $300 and the stop loss is therefore $150. The 'cushion' is $150.

But what happens if you are doing well? The rule is very simple. The 'cushion' remains the same in VALUE terms, NOT in % terms.

For example:

In the FL5/10 game, if your TR increased to $400, the stop loss would rise to $250 and the cushion would remain at $150. If your TR reached $450, you can play on knowing you will NOT have a losing session BECAUSE of a constant stop loss cushion of $150. This helps to ensure a positive mindset and may improve the 'decision making process' for the remainder of the session.

What about No Limit?

The BR series sets the NL BR at 15 x Max Buyin and the TR as the Maximum Buyin allowed.

For example:

In a NL1/2 game, the BR required is $3000 ($200 x 15) and the TR is the maximum buy in of $200.

The NL stop loss is the buyin - or 1 buyin per day - in this case a 'cushion' of $200. If the TR begins to increase, the cushion of $200 remains constant - if the TR rises to $350, the stop loss moves to $150, with the same $200 difference. Again, if the TR reaches $400, a profitable session is to be expected.

There is also a GLOBAL DAILY STOP LOSS, equal to the normal session stop loss for the lowest level played that day. The GDSL is designed to prevent an accumulation of small losses building up to a high level during the day, or play at a higher level destroying a solid BR built at a lower level. If the GDSL figure is reached for the day, you stop playing until at least the next day.

For example:

You have played 4 FL5/10 sessions, winning 1 and losing 3 with results of +$75, -$65, -$35, -$100, a net result of -$125, just $25 above the GDSL figure of $150. It doesn't matter what level you play the next session at, if you reach a loss of $25 in the session, you must stop for the day.

The 'cushion' figure is STILL $150, but the GDSL sets the bottom line until the cushion results in a cut off figure ABOVE the bottom line number - in this case it would be when the session TR reached $425. When the TR goes above this figure, the normal session stop loss rules apply and the GDSL figure no longer applies in the remainder of the session:

TR$300........Normal Stop Loss $150............GDSL$275.........GDSL applies
TR$350........Normal Stop Loss $200............GDSL$275.........GDSL applies
TR$425........Normal Stop Loss $275............GDSL$275.........BOTH apply
TR$450........Normal Stop Loss $300............GDSL$300.........NSL applies

and so on. It does not matter what level the session is, as stop loss rules apply - and the same principles would apply to a daily series of NL cash game sessions.

If a mixture of FL and NL are being played, use the smaller of the 2 figures for GDSL calculations.

A stop loss is there for a reason. We do not play perfect poker all the time. We are human. We get mixed up emotionally. We get tired. We need to have a figure in place to stop a losing sequence destroying out BR, to give us time to withdraw and recover for another day.

If you do not have one, put one in place now.

[bl2nk0r]

Hey sun!
Another great post The calculations and advice are impressive and I'm truly amazed of how u take so much time and energy to help others. I'm sure that it helps the beginners a lot.

You're posts really made me thinking that it's about time I started kickin ass at the cash tables. Well this and the fact that $10 Rebuys were staring to eat into my bankroll although they were ok with BR requirements playing them several times a day was too much. And not making profit and getting some tough bad beats from left and right got me upset. So instead of moving up and trying to win it all back at once ....I decided to take a break from MTT's and cash games seemed to be absolutely perfect way to get my mind off thinking about all these huge prize moneys I was missing out on.

I hadn't been playing cash games cause the lower limits NL seems to have a push/fold type of play and FL seemed to be impossible to beat because of all the callers and me starting to chase draws I usually don't But watching your hands made it all seem so easy and so I decided to give it a proper try.

So I cashed out all my money except for $200 ($50-cash $150-S&G) As for cash I'm playing according to my BR of $50 but S&G I didn't move down because I was comfortable that I could beat the lvl I've been playing even with a tiny BR but as soon as I build a bigger roll I'm going to start moving up/down the right way. Should be good for me cause I seem to be the only one who has a problem with being too conservative:roll: and I have been building my roll at lower lvl S&G than I should have but at least that way I can avoid going on tilt and having big ups and downs. To me it seems surprising how all the beginners move up so quickly and bust their rolls so often. I have temptations with MTT's but luckily for most of the time I know better.

Anyways, so far I have been doing good and since I started with low lvl FL cash I have had 26 profitable sessions in a row :D don't know how i used to lose all the time there b4. Of course at these lvls it doesn't add up to much and I'm not yet thinking that I can beat all the lvls but hey it's a start and a quite nice one indeed

When I keep doin good I'm looking to move up soon and I hope that then I can get some thoughts about my hands but so far it's nothing but ABC although it's boring at times but I'm motivated atm and really want to make it work this time

So tnx sun and keep up the good work

[sun137]

I am glad it is working for you bl2nk0r. 26 in a row is excellent. It doesn't matter how small the profit seems, the performance is the key. I would rather be $1 up in a solid boring session than $50 down in a loose exciting session. I prefer to focus on an increasing BR. So well done!!

I am glad you are playing within BR at all times. It allows you to move between games and take bad beats without throwing the computer out the window. One thing about rebuys:

The BR for a rebuy with normal 15 minute blinds in DOUBLE.

The BR for a rebuy with 10 minute blinds is FOUR TIMES NORMAL

The BR for a rebuy with 5 minute blinds is SIX TIMES NORMAL.

I don't know the speed of rebuys you were playing, but I use the above guide because of the increasing variance.

The learning sequence of SNG/MTT/FL/NL is still valid, so just make sure you are comfortable with the path you are on.

Good luck and well done again!!

[mpakt]

Very solid stuff and very under emphasized. Even though poker is a skill game, as sklansky says, poker is still gambling. These concepts are well documented in other forms of gambling. Matter of fact it is the conerstone to all other gambling. Money management, win loss stops are what make the difference between winning losing in all other gambling. I don't know how many times I have doubled or more my tr and then go on to end up down.This is more damaging to your emotions than it is to your br. Even breaking even after being up can suck all the life out of your play and set future sessions up for less than optimal play.

Props to you for bringing up this very important point.

[sun137]

hi mpakt, welcome to the forum and thankyou for your comments.

I have seen too many people who jump in an just play, without any advance planning, research, practice and most important of all - an understanding of money management including the absolute necessity of adequate bankroll.

It takes a very long time to be a good poker player, but the people who stop to think before jumping into battle have a better chance of survival.

There are many threads in this forum with a wealth of information - feel free to browse and I hope they will be of benefit to you.

[Kaibraine]

Hi Sun

Thanks for the great BR building series of articles.

Regarding the stoploss. I 4x table 2/4 LHE 6 -max. On 4 tables 6 max 15x bb downswings happen usually within 5 mins or so of sitting down lol. I won't be playing much if I follow these guidelines to the letter.

What recommendations do you have for multitabling stoploss? Would you set 4 x 15 bb (60bb's)?

[sun137]

Hi Kairbraine and welcome to the forum.

LHE 2/4 needs a BR of $1200 (300BB) for FR tables, however double BR (600BB) is the normal rule for SH tables because of the faster action and higher short term variance, or $2400 (see the BR series for all BR limits).

I use a TR guide of 30BB, or $120 for 2/4, but this should be double for SH games at $240 (I play with anything from 20BB upwards, but that is just me, I have been around for a while, standard rules should always apply until you have a lot of experience).

The normal stop loss would be 5% of BR or 50% of TR. This is $60 for FR and $120 for shorthanded tables. The GDSL would be the same, spread over all the tables you are playing. How should you approach multitabling if the GDSL is the same figure and poor starts on all tables will mean a very short session?

The answer is simple.

There are 2 ways to multitable in Limit Holdem - jump in all at once or add tables as you go. The first method is similar to jumping into the deep end of a swimming pool when you can't swim, as LHE (or FL, whichever designation you prefer) requires a lot of instant decisions in a fast action high variance game. You can be down 30BB very quickly across all tables if the cards go against you.

I always prefer the second method.

The session starts with 1 table and the 30BB normal SH stop loss (remember this is DOUBLE the normal FR stop loss), giving you room to play and get settled into a rhythm. If things are going badly, stick to one table and leave if the stop loss is reached. If things are going well, add another table, but stick to the 30BB rule as this protects gains made in the initial table - assume you were 5BB up and started a new table, your session stop loss is now -25BB.

If things continue to go well, add a third table, then a 4th, sticking to the overall 30BB GDSL ($120 for 2/4) across all tables. If you reach a point where your overall session profit is $120, you can play on knowing you will NOT have a losing session if you stick to the GDSL.

There are a number of benefits of this piecemeal approach to multitabling:

1. You only increase risk by adding new tables if you are doing well.
2. You keep risk from a losing session to the normal minimum level.
3. You reduce the risk of tilt to a minimum level.
4. You will have (or should have) a more positive mental approach to decision making because risk is under control.
5. You will have better long term results.

I have provided detailed session analysis in a number of threads (now in the archives) and the potential gain or loss per hand is a critical thing to remember. The normal process is a preflop raise, flop bet, turn bet, river bet (there may be 3 bets/capping/raises along the way, but this is the standard sequence). This process costs 1BB + 0.5BB + 1BB + 1BB or 3.5BB ($14 in a 2/4 game) and can reach 6BB with capping or reraisng.

Therefore 8 or 9 bad hands (or 5 awful results) in sequence going to the river could bring you to the stop loss of 30BB and this is a higher risk the more hands you play at once - therefore it is important to apply 100% concentration in multitabling. I always set a cap on 4 tables for multi tabling LHE for this reason - it is not like NL where a huge number of hands are fold, fold, fold. LHE is by definition an action game and SH play is the fastest action. It is possible to get carried away with the action as you play more tables, so mental discipline is important and the GDSL is there for that reason. I know a lot of people who get burned very quickly mutitabling LHE because they do not understand how to approach it.

One other thing.

LHE is the fastest way to generate rakeback (or points on sites without rakeback). Shorthanded LHE are 4 or 5 times faster than equivalent NL tables. However rakeback/points are only a game fee rebate on table rake, usually about 0.75BB/100 hands or hour and we should never forget profit is the main reason we play, not rakeback or cash via points earned.

I know I have expanded a little on your question, but I hope it is helpful.

[Kaibraine]

Thanks Sun for the very detailed reply.

I have a sufficient bankroll, yes

I have played NL and FL holdem several years. I am a marginal winner but I have some big big leaks in my play come from me continuing to play when I am tired or on tilt or simply with a crushed table image that really eat away at my WR. Adding tables one at a time and limiting my sessions via stoploss is just what I need. I will put your advice into practice in the coming week and add tables one at a time.

I'll also endeavour to stop chasing rake lol

your detective skills are astounding

thanks again

[sun137]

Ty - I do my best.

A lot of people chase rakeback.............you are not alone.............

FL2/4 is DEFINITELY not a level I would recommend for rakeback anyway - playing 2 tables of 1/2 is usually a far better option. What site are you playing at and I will give you the best options.

[Kaibraine]

I have been playing alot at FTP lately. I like the games there as there are plenty of weak-loose calling types who like to show down A high/bottom pair etc on a regular basis. And even the regulars seem to go too aggro at these 6-max tables, consistently three betting and capping my (mostly) 11% opening range with hands like ATo from the sb and going to far with it postflop and is nice for me Definately a weak pool

[turn and fall]

ahhh im one of those idiot 3bettors lol

[Kaibraine]

3 bet away at the 45/30 types

[sun137]

OK......FTP Limit Holdem rake/rakeback analysis.

First, remember (as stated in my post above), we play for profit and rakeback is a rebate on the cost of play - but it is important to maximize any rakeback on offer to reduce your costs. The FTP rake rules are as follows:

You are entitled to rake if you are dealt into the hand and a flop is seen by any players in the hand (it does not have to be you).

Up to 0.5/1 the rake is $0.05 for every $1 in the pot up to a maximum rake of $0.50 (for a pot of $20+)
At 1/2 the rake is in blocks of $0.25 for every $5 in the pot up to a maximum rake of $1 (for a pot of $20+)
At higher levels the rake is in blocks of $1 for every $20 in the pot up to a maximum rake of $3 (for a pot of $60+)

The rake structure is designed to be spread evenly over increasing pot size, but the actual choice of the pot size boundaries for increased rake allows a tactical decision to be made to maximize rakeback while maintaining the potential for our primary goal of table profit from opponents. If we look at the normal betting process to a river showdown in limit holdem games - let us assume only 2 players are involved in the hand and it is a shorthanded game with 6 players:

A preflop raise in called by the big blind and a flop is seen (the small blind folds and is dead money)
A continuation bet on the flop is called and the turn is seen.
The original raiser bets and is called and a river is seen.
The original raiser bets and is called and a showdown takes place.

There are other sequences - raiser takes it down before the flop, or there are reraises, the betting nay be capped, the hand may end on the flop or the turn, the defender may raise the turn and so on - but the reason I highlight the initial sequence is to show how the pot develops to the river without any additional betting, either from the existing players in the hand or from other players preflop. We can establish the impact on rake for the standard sequence and then see if the additional factors have any influence on the rake figure for the hand.

The following table shows the total pot size at each stage and the actual rake in the hand for the 6 buyin levels from .5/1 up to FL15/30:



A number of conclusions can be drawn from the table (we take for granted the impact of rake has a direct 27% relation to rakeback):

1. You need to play FL15/30 to guarantee maximum rake on any flopped hand with just 1 opponent.
2. You need to play FL10/20 to guarantee maximum rake on any hand reaching the turn with just 1 opponent and 2/3 of maximum on the flop.
3. You need to play FL5/10 to guarantee maximum rake on any hand reaching the river with just 1 opponent and 1/3 of maximum on the flop and turn.
4. You need to have extra bets from 2 players or extra players in the hand to incur ANY rake before the river in FL3/6 and FL2/4.
5. You need to have extra bets from 2 players or extra players in the hand to incur MAXIMUM rake on the river (and increased/possibly maximum rake on the flop and turn) in FL1/2 and FL0.5/1
6. It will take 2 tables of FL1/2 to make a rake comparison with FL2/4 at similar BR levels and the actual cost of rake on the FL1/2 tables will be 50% higher the rake at the FL2/4 tables for similar hand scenarios.

It is the last point that allows you to examine if there is a tactical advantage from playing 2 tables of 1/2 or a single table of 2/4 (assuming BR is adequate of course). You need to examine your BB/100 hands profit at each level, taking into consideration the higher cost of rake at the 1/2 level and the impact of rakeback (which has less value at the cheaper rake higher buyin levels), the ability and agression level of opponents and how your own style changes as you go up the buyins.

The cost of rake falls at the 2/4 and 3/6 levels (if we are comparing similar types of active games at each level) and rises again at the 5/10 level before tailing off at 10/20 and 20/40 and certainly if you are rely on your rakeback for a montly salary (it is the way I treat it), seperate from your daily gains/losses, the 2/4 and 3/6 levels are not the best levels to play.

Just a thought - everyone is different, but the message is 'think before you decide what to play, in order to maximize profit'.

(NL is 5 cents per $1 pot up to a $3 maximum rake (for a $60+ pot) whatever the level, therefore no potential tactical advantage applies - but you should be aware the rake/rakeback for equivalent NL buyins v FL based on the same BR runs at around 50% of the FL level.)