Bankroll Building (Part 1) - A basic Cash Bankroll

[sun137]

I have mentioned a Time budget in many of my posts. I will deal with a full and detailed multi game time budget in part 2 but thought it would be useful for newbies out there to cover other ground first.

This (the table below) is a Bankroll (BR) budget based on cash games. However I must point out I agree with Marty's approach to BR building via SNG/MTT initially when you are starting out as it does give you loads of experience, teaches you patience and discipline with minimum risk - in reality I count it as training investment as I do not believe you really have a BR until you start winning consistently. I started out playing cash games ( hadn't a clue) and was a consistent loser until I started to learn, but more importantly until I started to play SNG and built up the knowledge and discipline required to go and play cash games profitably. Cash games - play FL first, before you switch to NL. Walk before you can run.

So, for all you newbies out there, this will give you an appreciation of the time and effort needed to build a very solid BR if you only played FL cash games.

I expect a lot of learning to have been undertaken (before playing cash games), ABC poker to be played and proper analysis software to be used. I make the following assumptions (you may differ in value, but hopefully not in structure)

Normal full ring games produce approximately 80 hands per hour (We ignore shorthanded games at 100 hands per hour).

Each budget poker day lasts 8 hours

Only 1 table is played

The budget is therefore 640 hands per day on 1 Full Ring Table.

Online profit is 4BB/100 (about average for FL).

The minimum level of BR is 300BB. This must be achieved before going up a level.

You have $20 to start - and you start at 0.25/0.50 (4BB = $2)

The table is very simple.......................................

Level..........MinBR.........MaxBR.........Profit..........Hands...........Hours...Days

Start..........20...............150.............130............6500...............81.......10
0.25/0.50...150............. 300.............150...........7500...............94.......12
0.50/1.00...300..............600.............300...........7500...............94.......12
1/2............600..............1200............600...........7500..............94.......12
2/4............1200............1800............600...........3750...............47.......6
3/6............1800............3000............1200.........5000...............63.......8
5/10..........3000............6000............3000.........7500...............94.......12
10/20........6000............9000............3000..........3750..............47........6
15/30........9000............12000..........3000..........2500...............31.......4
20/40........12000..........18000..........6000..........3750...............47.......6
30/60........18000..........30000..........12000........5000...............63.......8
50/100......30000..........60000..........30000........7500...............94.......12

Totals.............................................59800........67750.............847.....108

Therefore, using the above assumptions/table, you need to play approximately 450 hours and/or 35000 hands with a 4BB/100 hands average profit to build your BR up to $3000 and start playing FL 5/10. Although 100000 hands is considered the minimum to assess your consistent true profit rate, the above gradual move through the levels allows you to progress up the skill levels with experience.

I know there are many variables, ups and downs, in the real poker world, but you have to start with a structure, a goal, and a timeframe to achieve it. I used this when I started to play cash properly and used the mid point of the ranges to move up or down a level (on reaching 1200, play 75% at 1/2 and 25% at 2/4 until you reach 1500 and only then play 100% at 2/4). If I had reached a new level and the BR started to fall, I just reversed the process (if the 1500 BR began to fall, I would revert back to 75%/25% at 1200 but keep this ratio until 900 before reverting back 100% to 1/2 and so on).

If you want to use the above for NL, I have always used a 5:1 ratio in my comparisons - FL 5/10 = NL 1/2 for example. This is where I get my BR guide of 15 x Max Buyin for NL. It keeps things simple and realistic and means I can use the same principles for moving up or down.

If you want to change the BB/100 profit, put the table in Excel and play around with it - but it is a starting point for building any proper TimeBudget (and time is the first factor in deciding what game of poker we can play).

I will fill in the detail for a multigame time budget with rakeback and bonuses in part 2, but I thought it would be an idea to start somewhere.

[valders]

Sun, I am a new player and have a lot to learn. Your post on Bankroll Management is very helpful. I have just started reading it so my comments may be pre-mature.
I saved all 8 posts to word and printed it out because it is easier for me to read.
Others have commented that you should put this in a ebook and I agree.
If I may make a couple of suggestions.
Make the font size around 12 to 14 for us old players. At 67 my eyes aren't what they used to be.
When you create your ebook add a glossry of terms. For new players like me it would be helpful to have a chart to reference when I come across an abreviation that is not totally familiar yet.
Seperate the games into different chapters. At least for me it would help reduce my confusion when I have to try and reconfigure formulas from FL cash games to NL or cash games to Sit and Go and again from STT to MTT.
Please understand I am not critizing your work. You have a gift for writing and putting facts and figures on paper. I appreciate what you have done and look forward to more of your very helpful articles.

[sun137]

Hi valders and welcome, your comments are appreciated.

The posts are a collection of notes/references from my own playing experience and were initially made as independent items - but put into a sequence later. There have been a number of suggestions for an ebook and this is under consideration. I agree with you 100%, any ebook would need a different structure/format/glossary among other things and the actual content would be tailored accordingly to correct ebook standards.

There were originally about 15 parts to the series, but over time on the forum I have developed the other parts into threads in the relevant sections of the forum (although they are not identified as such).

I have a suggestion for the font size:

If you copy and paste a section into notepad (make sure the notepad wordwrap option is on), this will allow you to change the font size and style to your own preference. It will also allow you to add/change/delete any sections to suit your requirements.

If you have any queries feel free to post and I will try and help where I can.

Good luck and thankyou for the comments again!

[trapsetter]

Hi Sun

How many BBs do i take to the table in a FL cash game??

[Phaedrus75]

General rule is 30 Big Bets.

If you are playing $0.5/$1, then a Big Bet is $2 and you would take $60.

Sun recommends to be rolled for 300 Big Bets, meaning you need a $600 roll to play $0.5/$1.

I've seen quite a few authors suggest a roll of 500 Big Bets.

[JSquared]

Phaedrus, I think you may be too used to HM tracking your NLHE hands Big Bets as double the BB.

IF you are playing .50/1, then the big bet is the 1, you will be playing .25/.5 blinds, but the big bet will be the 1.

[Phaedrus75]

Phaedrus, I think you may be too used to HM tracking your NLHE hands Big Bets as double the BB.

IF you are playing .50/1, then the big bet is the 1, you will be playing .25/.5 blinds, but the big bet will be the 1.

right you are....its been too long since I played FL....

[sun137]

I think you have been trying to forget Phaedrus, after the Cake sessions.............

Yes, it is 300BB, or $300 for $0.50/1.00 and take 10% or 30BB ($30) to the table. This should be sufficient for a normal or passive game, with average or little preflop raising respectively.

If the table is very agressive with lots of players raising/reraising there are 2 options:

Leave (if you are a newbie)
Play with double the normal Table Roll (TR) is you are not a newbie and comfortable at the table.

If the table is very agressive play your normal game but do not bother with preflop raising, let them do it for you - use position (the button) a lot more, play OOP a lot less (i.e hardly at all), fold every SB without AA-TT and play Red/Blue/SC from the BB taking advantage of the discount to call.

If you do start out at the 0.50/1 limit level, it possible to start at $5 and work build a BR from there once you have good experience. I am conducting an experiment at the minute for a client to see if it is possible to earn £10 ($14) per hour at this level, as this is equal to £20K ($28K) per annum based on a 40 hour week (2000 hours per year). The fall in the value of the £ to the $ means it is possible for a less experienced player to earn an average UK salary by playing at the lower levels instead of the $3/6 level as was required before - where a less experienced player should not play (without coaching).

Results so far are encouraging (and it hasn't interfered with my 2009 MTT goals which are seperate to this experiement......)



and hand 1 on the 17th Feb......



and that's about it.

[Phaedrus75]

Are you multi-tabling Sun?

[JSquared]

I am kind of confused, how would it be possible to earn ~13BB/100 hands in the long term?

[sun137]

Re Phae - no, this is just 1 table in the background while I do other things. I do not wish to play 8 hours per day, 40 hours per week, 2000 hours per year on 1 table though, the idea is to see if it is feasible. If it is (and I do believe it is) then multi-tabling (up to 4 max) would be the route. It is difficult to multi-table more than 4 tables long term without affecting concentration and bottom line profit - although I see loads of players do it, I often wonder have they really checked out the bottom line impact.

SNG/MTT are a different matter of course, you can multi table loads of them.

Re JJ - the normal budget I have for FL is (as you know) 4BB/100. However the standard at 0.50/1 is a lot less than (say) 3/6 - very level 1 thinking - and the expected return for would be higher for someone dropping down limits. The attraction for the client is the reduced Bankroll requirements, lower risk and potentially the same overall profit by virtue of a higher return.

If the $14/hour is not possible through 1 table, then multi table is the option with (at most) 3 tables being required.

Another option is to multi table from the start to obtain a higher rate per hour and reduced overall hours required to play per month.

A number of options will be looked at.

[sun137]

The initial review has highlighted the following:

Long spells of playing each day for the less experienced player is not good for profit rate.

There is a higher expected rate of return at the lower levels, but 3.5 times normal budget is too high over the long term (you are quite right JJ).

The sessions should be profit target driven, not time driven (based on coffee time principles).

There should be 2 tables per session. However instead of 2 x 0.5/1 tables, a more agressive strategy will be used with one at the 0.50/1 level and one at the 1/2 level.

The budget rate should be applied as a minimum average return, but an increased target of 50% higher should be the expected target.

The table roll (normally 10% of BR) is to be reduced to 6.66% or 1/15th. Therefore the TR for 0.50/1 is $20 and the TR for 1/2 is $40. The reason is simple - to allow a more agressive use of the same combined TR. The normal TR for 2 0.5/1 tables would be $60 (2 x $30). This is now split, with 2/3 going to the 1/2 table and 1/3 going to the 0.50/1 table.

The 50% stop loss rule is to be removed and and replaced by a more agressive 'wipeout' strategy. If a TR is lost in a session, play stops for the day.

A table session will end when the hourly target is reached, the TR is lost or an hour has passed.

Rake should also be used for additional income.

Shorthanded tables are to be the arena and average over 100 hands per hour, but 100 hands has been taken for the budget.

Note:

The competition is less skilled/agressive at these levels, allowing standard TAG positional poker to be applied. Players tend to bet post flop with any part of the flop and check otherwise. Bluffing agression is limited compared to the higher levels.

The play will continue until the target is reached.

The initial BR is $300, normally applicable to the 0.5/1 level - again a more agressive strategy.

The expected return is as follows:

0.5/1 table @ 4BB/100 hands = $4 per hour = $8000 per 2000 hours

1/2 table @ 4BB/100 hands = $8 per hour = $16000 per 2000 hours

Rake is 0.75/hour at the 0.5/1 table and 1.5/hour at the 1/2 table.

Total rake = 2.25/hour = $4500 per 2000 hours

Total profit over 2000 hours = $28500 at an average of $14.25 per hour.

If 6BB/100 hands/hour is achieved the target will be reached within 1200 hours instead of 2000.

The original $5 has been turned into $163 ($158 profit), increasing to $188 including bonus in a few days, with a 6.72BB/100 - time will tell how it turns out over the whole of 2009.

[ChristinaMarie]

Thank you, Sun137.

I found the 4BB/100 hands to be particular helpful as I had no target to achieve before this. It's only been 506 hands at FL 0.25/.50 and I have 4.15 BB/100. This is after 3 months training at one of the schools you recommended in a later post in this series.

I'm thinking of carrying on playing the SNGs mainly but carrying on with FL at this limit unless I lose money on it, then I would stick with SNGs only for now. I've dropped .05/.010 NLHE ring games for the reasons you stated here.

[Rebelious1]

ChristinaMarie,
I hope Sun137 will add his opinion after me...... ok

I work my poker out this way,

I play FL holdem cash / ring games, and take "some" of the profit from that, to pay for my tourney / SNG entries.

Thus tourney entries come from profit and not "the bankroll" as such ;0)

If I don't earn a profit from that days play of FL cash game, then I can't play a tourney (I haven't earned it).

I have (personally) found this to be a good way, to keep myself disciplined regarding bankroll management, it may not be for you though !

I learned the game playing FL cash, and others are learning sng's and tourneys first, so maybe not right for everyone.

[sun137]

You are both taking the right approach. The minimum BR for a multigame budget is $300 and this is after you have built up your BR through game experience. We all learn in different ways and usually find one of the 4 types of games (SNG/MTT/FL cash/NL cash) become a favourite for learning/BR building - this is perfectly fine as we are all different.

I used (still do actually) the 'quick cash profit for MTT entry' route in my early days - the coffee time strategy evolved from it and it means there is no pressure in the MTT when you always need 'to be prepared to die to win'.

The 4BB/100 is a budget guide for profit. The normal average WR/100 hands is usually higher at the lower levels and falls by 50% at the higher (more skilful levels). It is important to focus on making good decisions and profit will follow. If you reach 4BB/100 fine, if you only reach 1BB/100 don't worry - it does not mean you are playing badly.

Profit through good decisions is all that matters. You need about 100K in hands to REALLY know how good you are and you can run hot and cold many times during this time. We all learn more every day (I always try to) and I find the players that plan ahead, know their profit goals, maintain a solid BR and stick to good principles are ALWAYS the guys who are around for the long haul.

Good luck!